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Archiver > HERBARZ > 2003-08 > 1060013815


From: "David Zincavage" <>
Subject: Re: Query ..
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:16:55 -0700
References: <008301c35977$7c8b9a90$4586aec7@inspiron> <002401c35983$7a4d4ce0$210110ac@THINKPAD> <016201c35a3a$0f042a00$4586aec7@inspiron>


The January Insurrection of 1863-1864 took place in the Russian Partition.
Poznan [German: Posen], and its environs, at that time was part of Prussia.
There was no unified Poland, and there was obviously no national system of
conscription. Peasant, like nobles, in some cases volunteered. I expect
that some noble landowners mustered their tenants to accompany them to war,
but I don't think coercive enlistment was significantly practiced.

> Question: The paragraph above certainly rings true since my GGGrandfather
> was a soldier who died about this time period and my GGrandfather would
have
> been 18 years of age. The 1867 date of emigration to the US is confirmed.
I
> have yet to research the specific "war" or insurrection but it looks that
> you may have identified it for me. I have one question: The insurrection
of
> 1863-64 was on the Eastern portion of Poland (Russian) if I recall
> correctly. My Family was centered in a small village (Rybowo) on the
Western
> part of Poland near Poznan.
> Do you feel that this insurrection affected all of Poland, East to West,
and
> do you think that commoners from over the entirety of Poland were
"drafted"
> to fight for Poland ??


My point was simply that you do not have to find a specific date of
ennnoblement. Commonly in the Polish context, homonymous families both
armigerous and non-armigerous exist. What it takes to establish a
connection can vary a great deal from one case to another. Some surnames
are rare and consequently potentially distinctive in ways the great majority
are not. Some people actually brought nobility confirmation documents, or
rings bearing the family coat of arms, with them when they emigrated. Some
families preserved their status into the 19th century era of foreign
occupation; others did not.


> Question: Concerning "the immemorial nobility", I understand what you
said
> but I don't know if I quite understand what you mean. In my simple mind,
it
> appears a paradox. On one hand it would be impossible to identify with a
> Noble Family of a Noble Estate if no records yet existed to establish
> lineage. On the other hand, it would appear that if one today simply
> possessed the surname of a Noble Family, of a Noble Estate, in existence
> prior to meaningful record keeping, one would then be considered Noble. ??
> Where am I wrong ??


Well, I descend from the Anthracite coal mining, escaping Russian
conscription and emigrating to Pennsylvania, Lithuanian disenfranchised
petty gentry myself. My immediate ancestors used to brag a great deal about
how important their families were in earlier times in Lithuania, so I became
interested in the subject of Polish-Lithuanian heraldry and genealogy. When
I first got access to a major research library at college, I started looking
into the subject.

I think you'll find that descendants of armigerous families have always
remained prominent in politics, the sciences, and the arts in Poland and in
Lithuania. The last Communist dictator Jaruzelski was a member of the
Jelita clan, if I recall correctly. The best known armorial (Niesiecki's)
was reprinted in the hay day of Communism, and I'm told that a set of
Nieskiecki was a very acceptable bribe, because so many prominent persons in
the Communist government were armigerous.

Obviously, opinions differ on the history of the European aristocracies and
the nature of precisely what it is that noblesse might oblige. I know of
some societies of Russian descendants of the Russian courtier-class (there
was no real nobility in Russia) whose members commonly think they are all
going to be going back there one day and will recover their houses, estates,
and mabe even their serfs. The Poles are not quite the fantasists the
Russians are, but I find that persons living in Poland do think in far more
concrete and official terms of a Polish nobility when compared to Americans.


> Lastly, I have another question, and it's rather direct. Obviously you sir
> descend from the Polish Nobility. Since Polish law has relegated the
> Nobility to the "back burner", as it were, those of the Nobility are
unable
> to legally exercise their talents and obligations as leaders during peace
> and war.
>
> It would appear to me, that the few chosen today who descend from Polish
> Nobility have both the distinction of birthright and correspondingly, the
> obligation to fulfil it. Since the distinction is obvious, and in today's
> world, what do you consider your obligation ??
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Lassek" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: Query ..


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Zincavage" <>
> To: "Thomas Lassek" <>; <>
> Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 12:52 AM
> Subject: Re: Query ..
>
>
> > If you are correct in the general date, it would seem most probable that
> > your ancestor emigrated as the result of the failure of the January
> > Insurrection of 1863-1864, had served as an insurrectionist, and left to
> > escape prosecution. Participation in the insurrections tended to be
more
> > common on the part of the gentry than the peasantry, but there were
> > exceptions, of course.
>
> Thank you for this and all the information that you provide. Today I learn
> more.
>
> Question: The paragraph above certainly rings true since my GGGrandfather
> was a soldier who died about this time period and my GGrandfather would
have
> been 18 years of age. The 1867 date of emigration to the US is confirmed.
I
> have yet to research the specific "war" or insurrection but it looks that
> you may have identified it for me. I have one question: The insurrection
of
> 1863-64 was on the Eastern portion of Poland (Russian) if I recall
> correctly. My Family was centered in a small village (Rybowo) on the
Western
> part of Poland near Poznan.
> Do you feel that this insurrection affected all of Poland, East to West,
and
> do you think that commoners from over the entirety of Poland were
"drafted"
> to fight for Poland ??
>
>
> > 3. If one is able to establish descent from anyone living in the past
who
> > was believed at the time to be armigerous, one is regarded as armigous
> > oneself. Nobility does not necessarily descend from any known
> ennoblement.
> > Many people descent from "the immemorial nobility," such families having
> > been in the noble estate from periods previous to any meaningful
> > record-keeping. This conceptual distinction in Germany is referred to
in
> > terms of the Ur-Adel and the Briefe-Adel. In France, as the noblesse de
> > l'epee and the noblesse de la robe. When church records are
exhausted,
> it
> > may be possible to find some earlier information in notarial records or
in
> > published sources. Probabilities of finding such information would tend
> to
> > correlate largely with property ownership & office holding.
>
> Question: Concerning "the immemorial nobility", I understand what you said
> but I don't know if I quite understand what you mean. In my simple mind,
it
> appears a paradox. On one hand it would be impossible to identify with a
> Noble Family of a Noble Estate if no records yet existed to establish
> lineage. On the other hand, it would appear that if one today simply
> possessed the surname of a Noble Family, of a Noble Estate, in existance
> prior to meaningful record keeping, one would then be considered Noble. ??
> Where am I wrong ??
>
> Lastly, I have another question, and it's rather direct. Obviously you sir
> descend from the Polish Nobility. Since Polish law has relegated the
> Nobility to the "back burner", as it were, those of the Nobility are
unable
> to legally exercise their talents and obligations as leaders during peace
> and war.
>
> It would appear to me, that the few chosen today who descend from Polish
> Nobility have both the distinction of birthright and correspondingly, the
> obligation to fulfil it. Since the distinction is obvious, and in today's
> world, what do you consider your obligation ??
>
> Again ..... I thank you for your assisting me.
>
> Tom Lassek
> Eufaula Alabama
>
>
>

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