HERBARZ-L Archives

From: "Leon Stevens" <>
Subject: RE: Tartars in Lithuanian Nobility
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:25:04 -0400

> claim that most Tatars used tamga arms <

It's insufficient to just "glance through Dziadulewicz's" and conclude
that the tamgas are separate from the Polish arms for heaven's sake that
the Tatars adopted Bohemian arms. Dziadulewicz says; " Oprocz herbow
znanych powszechnie, jak Ksiezyc, Strzala, Luk, Trzaska, Topor, Radwan,
Pryjaciel i inne, podajemy 106 herbow indywidualnych; tych ostatnich
napewno znalazloby sie wiecej, niestety, jednak mialem naogol biorac
szczupla dosych garsc dokumentow na ktorych dochowaly sie znaki
pieczetne...
Najbardziej rozpowszechnionym jest znak zwany "tamga", jestto znak
uzywany przez arystokracje tatarska."
"Besides those arms known everywhere like Ksiezyc, Strzala, Luk,
Trzaska, Topor, Radwan, Przyjaciel and others, we offer 106 individual
arms. Of the latter, surely more are to be found, but I had a pitifully
small number of documents on which were preserved seals...
Most universal is the sign called a "tamga". It is the sign used by
the Tatar aristocracy." I have yet to find any Tatar families "adopted"
by Lithuanian or Polish families. Rather the opposite, Dziadulewicz
notes for example, "Daszkiewicz herbu Dolega z odm. ... Istniejace po
dzis dzien litewsko-ruskie rodziny Daszkiewiczow i Daszkowiczow z
rodzina omawiana nic wspolnego nie maja."
("The Daszkiewiczes of the Dolega arms... The Lithuanian-Ruthenian
families existing to this day, called Daszkiewicz and Daszkowicz, have
nothing at all in common with the family under discussion.") Tatar
nobles obtained their status and made their livings from military
service. Dumin says many were paid in cash rather than land. They were
commanded by Polish-speaking officers and had to be conversant in Polish
(not Belarusan and certainly not Lithuanian) in order to comprehend
commands and orders. I am unaware of any Belarusan, Lithuanian or for
that matter, Tatar-speaking Tatar organizations. Sienkiewicz makes no
mention of Lithuanian Tatars speaking anything other than Polish. Where
the same or similar arms are used by homonymous Tatar and
Polish-Lithuanian families, the were generally usurped, not obtained
through adoption. Dumin says generally of Lithuanian-Belarusan arms,
(p.16)""Klasyczne" herby polskie przydane w tych herbarzach przy tych
czy innych nazwiskach, przyjete zostaly przez inne rodziny uzywajace
tych lub podobnych nazwisk (czesto zupelnie innego pochodzenia)"
("Classic" Polish coats of arms supplied in these armorials next to such
or similar surnames, were seized by families using the same or similar
surnames (often of completely different descent)" Dziadulewicz, Dumin,
and Sienkiewicz are all Tatars, so I have to assume that they know
whereof they speak.

This thread:

• Re: Re Peacocks by
  • Re Peacocks by
  • RE: Re Peacocks by "Leon Stevens" <>