HERBARZ-L Archives

From: "David Zincavage" <>
Subject: Re: Tartars in Lithuanian Nobility
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:49:27 -0700
References: <2409A35B3E1C8D4D929583798DF5AA78D7D1AE@whmail01.walterhav.com>

The theory that Tartars adopted Bohemian arms is the product of a misreading
of Mr. Stevens', but I suppose some Tartar family probably did adopted
Odrowaz (following a Lithuanian family) and the armorialists and I are
persuaded that Odrowaz came to Poland (then Lithuania) from Bohemia.

>for heaven's sake that
> the Tatars adopted Bohemian arms.

You don't need the quotes. And why should you find such written records?
They do not exist for large numbers of other adoptions of Lithuanian
families by Poles which we all are happy to infer. We have the written and
sealed record of Horodlo (1413), and the seals of Lithuanians prove
adoptions occurred earlier than the Horodlo Union itself, since a number of
Lithuanian boyars arrived equipped with seals already bearing arms of Polish
origin. All the clans which did not adopt at Horodlo, nonetheless can boast
Lithuanian representatives. All of the major Polish clans have numerous
Lithuanian affiliates, not just the 47 listed at Horodlo. Nor am I aware of
armorial authorities who suppose that beyond the 47 Horodlo adoptions, we
are faced with limitless cases of lawless usurpation. Everyone simply
assumes that adoptions occurred in private which were not recorded in
surviving records.

Since, as I have remarked, it is extremely common to find homonymous
families of Tartar origin recorded as residing in the same neighborhoods as
Lithuanian families, and using the same clan arms, I do think it entirely
reasonable to assume that this effect has a cause, i.e. adoption.


> I have yet to find any Tatar families "adopted"
> by Lithuanian or Polish families.

And why should not Pan This or That have not paid his Tartar auxiliaries not
only in cash, but in status and affection, i.e. by affiliation with his own
arms?

Be assured, Leon, that the Lithuanian forces, including Tartar auxiliaries,
which so frequently defeated Poles that tens of thousands of Polish
prisoners were returned following the Union of Krewa undoubtedly spoke in
Lithuanian all the time. As did the descendants of Tartars settled in
numerous localities in Western Lithuania right down to modern times.
Military organizations emerging from Sudavia were speaking Lithuanian, as
were doubtless many from Samogitia. Sienkiewicz came from Podlasie, if I
recall correctly.


>("The Daszkiewiczes of the Dolega arms... The Lithuanian-Ruthenian
> families existing to this day, called Daszkiewicz and Daszkowicz, have
> nothing at all in common with the family under discussion.") Tatar
> nobles obtained their status and made their livings from military
> service. Dumin says many were paid in cash rather than land. They were
> commanded by Polish-speaking officers and had to be conversant in Polish
> (not Belarusan and certainly not Lithuanian) in order to comprehend
> commands and orders. I am unaware of any Belarusan, Lithuanian or for
> that matter, Tatar-speaking Tatar organizations. Sienkiewicz makes no
> mention of Lithuanian Tatars speaking anything other than Polish. Where
> the same or similar arms are used by homonymous Tatar and
> Polish-Lithuanian families, the were generally usurped, not obtained
> through adoption.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leon Stevens" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 1:25 PM
Subject: RE: Tartars in Lithuanian Nobility


> > claim that most Tatars used tamga arms <
>
> It's insufficient to just "glance through Dziadulewicz's" and conclude
> that the tamgas are separate from the Polish arms for heaven's sake that
> the Tatars adopted Bohemian arms. Dziadulewicz says; " Oprocz herbow
> znanych powszechnie, jak Ksiezyc, Strzala, Luk, Trzaska, Topor, Radwan,
> Pryjaciel i inne, podajemy 106 herbow indywidualnych; tych ostatnich
> napewno znalazloby sie wiecej, niestety, jednak mialem naogol biorac
> szczupla dosych garsc dokumentow na ktorych dochowaly sie znaki
> pieczetne...
> Najbardziej rozpowszechnionym jest znak zwany "tamga", jestto znak
> uzywany przez arystokracje tatarska."
> "Besides those arms known everywhere like Ksiezyc, Strzala, Luk,
> Trzaska, Topor, Radwan, Przyjaciel and others, we offer 106 individual
> arms. Of the latter, surely more are to be found, but I had a pitifully
> small number of documents on which were preserved seals...
> Most universal is the sign called a "tamga". It is the sign used by
> the Tatar aristocracy." I have yet to find any Tatar families "adopted"
> by Lithuanian or Polish families. Rather the opposite, Dziadulewicz
> notes for example, "Daszkiewicz herbu Dolega z odm. ... Istniejace po
> dzis dzien litewsko-ruskie rodziny Daszkiewiczow i Daszkowiczow z
> rodzina omawiana nic wspolnego nie maja."
> ("The Daszkiewiczes of the Dolega arms... The Lithuanian-Ruthenian
> families existing to this day, called Daszkiewicz and Daszkowicz, have
> nothing at all in common with the family under discussion.") Tatar
> nobles obtained their status and made their livings from military
> service. Dumin says many were paid in cash rather than land. They were
> commanded by Polish-speaking officers and had to be conversant in Polish
> (not Belarusan and certainly not Lithuanian) in order to comprehend
> commands and orders. I am unaware of any Belarusan, Lithuanian or for
> that matter, Tatar-speaking Tatar organizations. Sienkiewicz makes no
> mention of Lithuanian Tatars speaking anything other than Polish. Where
> the same or similar arms are used by homonymous Tatar and
> Polish-Lithuanian families, the were generally usurped, not obtained
> through adoption. Dumin says generally of Lithuanian-Belarusan arms,
> (p.16)""Klasyczne" herby polskie przydane w tych herbarzach przy tych
> czy innych nazwiskach, przyjete zostaly przez inne rodziny uzywajace
> tych lub podobnych nazwisk (czesto zupelnie innego pochodzenia)"
> ("Classic" Polish coats of arms supplied in these armorials next to such
> or similar surnames, were seized by families using the same or similar
> surnames (often of completely different descent)" Dziadulewicz, Dumin,
> and Sienkiewicz are all Tatars, so I have to assume that they know
> whereof they speak.
>
>
>

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