HERBARZ-L Archives

From: "David Zincavage" <>
Subject: Re: Tartars in Lithuanian Nobility
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:17:50 -0700
References: <2409A35B3E1C8D4D929583798DF5AA78D7D1B0@whmail01.walterhav.com>

The adoptions of 47 Lithuanian families by as many Polish families are
documented by the Horodlo treaty. The rest are undocumented, but hundreds
of Polish armorial clans will be found to have multiple Lithuanian
representative family as well. How do we account for this?

Do we reason that other undocumented adoptions must have occurred, or do we
theorize that all cases not listed at Horodlo were usurpations, or that some
mixture of both occurred?



----- Original Message -----
From: "Leon Stevens" <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 6:19 AM
Subject: RE: Tartars in Lithuanian Nobility


> > Tatars adopted Bohemian arms <
>
> David, in order to show that there were such adoptions, you have to show
> at the very least that an adoption of the type you describe could have
> at least taken place i.e. that the adopter was an officer, and that the
> adoptee had served under the adopter. During the medieval period
> adoption didn't have to be kept secret, and as a practical matter
> usurpation amounted to adoption, if the usurped party didn't object to
> the usurpation. Of the Tatar Aramowiczes, who claimed the Odrowaz arms.
> Dziadulewicz writes:
> "ARAMOWICZE herbu ODROWAZ, przydomku LITTAWOR.... W polowie XVII-go
> stulecia zaczedli uzywac przydomku Littawor i herbu Odrowaz oczywiscie
> dlatego aby wywolac wrazenie, ze sa jednego pochodzenia z moznym rodem
> Chreptowiczow tegoz herbu i przydomku. Z tym tez przydomkiem i herbem
> wylegitymowali sie ze szlachectwa w roku 1829-ym przed deputacja
> wywodowa wilenska, podajac w fantastycznym wywodzie, zlozonym jeszcze w
> roku 1775-ym przez Pawla Aramowicza w grodzie trockim, jako swego
> protoplaste, Krzysztofa, zyjacego w latach 1460-1480."
> ("ARAMOWICZES of the arams ODROWAZ, of the nickname-surname LITTAWOR....
> In the mid 17th century they began to use the nickname-surname Littawor
> and the Odrowaz coat of arms, of course to give the impression that they
> are of the same descent as the powerful Chreptowicz family using that
> nickname-surname and arms. With that nickname-surname and arms they
> legitimized their noble descent in 1829 before the Wilno Evidentiary
> Deputation, presenting a fantastical genealogy prepared by Pawel
> Aramowicz claiming already in the city of Troki in 1775 that their
> common ancestor was a certain Krzysztof having lived from 1460 to
> 1480.")
> Dziadulewicz goes on to explain that the Aramowiczes had not been
> baptized until the second half of the 16th century, when they became
> Calvinists. Dziadulewicz traces their true origins to Alej a
> trans-Volgan Tatar whose son Aram joined a Lithuanian regiment in 1528,
> whose grandson's family was baptized during the Lithuanian Reformation.
> So much for any "Bohemian" connection. The truth lies in the details,
> not in superficial impressions. A few days ago an arrested Baghdad
> merchant claimed that the orange orbs soldiers saw him selling were only
> tomatoes, until high-definition surveillance cameras proved them to be
> hand grenades. Even a family's own representations may not always be
> accepted as true.
>
>
>

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