SUTHERLAND-L Archives

Archiver > SUTHERLAND > 2006-11 > 1163899621


From: "Fisher \(Holiday Enterprise\) Ltd" <>
Subject: Re: [SUTHERLAND] John William Sutherland 1735
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2006 01:27:01 -0000
In-Reply-To: <455FA1C6.4000902@rcn.com>


Daniel,
This family is very well documented and we are well aware of many lines of
descent from William and Hannah Avery. It's the first generation which is in
question. If William Sutherland was born in Dunrobin Castle then
1) His mother was a distant cousin of the Earl of Sutherland and gave birth
to him while visiting Dunrobin
2) He was a natural son of the Earl of Sutherland (unlikely but possible)
3) His parents worked for the Earl of Sutherland and lived on Dunrobin
estate.

Between 1680 and 1730, Dunrobin Castle was in the possession of:
George Gordon 15th Earl of Sutherland born 1633 inherited Earldom 1679 and
died 1703
He had only 1 son John Gordon who changed his name to Sutherland by Royal
Warrant and 2 daughters.
John Gordon 16th Earl of Sutherland inherited in 1703 and died 1733.
His son William Sutherland, Lord Strathnaver, his only son, predeceased him
in 1720, the same year his elder son John also died aged 14 and John was
therefore succeeded by his grandson William 17th Earl born 1708 and died
1750.

We know William 17th Earl had 2 natural (illegitimate)sons, Lt.Col. James
Sutherland of Uppat who acted as Factor for his infant niece when his
half-brother William 18th Earl and his wife both died in Bath leaving
Elizabeth aged 1 year as Countess of Sutherland. It was she who married the
English Earl Gower. The 17th Earl also had Lt.Col. Nicholas Sutherland whom
we know did live in America where he served in the British army. Given the
age of William supposedly born at Dunrobin, he would have to be a natural
brother of William 17th Earl and son of William Lord Strathnaver. Clearly he
had the correct name at the correct time except that if he had been a son of
Lord Strathnaver, it is more likely he would have been named John after the
16th Earl who would have been his grandfather as the naming pattern was
rigidly followed even for natural children. This period of the Gordon
Sutherland is the one placed under more scrutiny than any other because of
the Sutherland Peerage Case 1771 in the House of Lords when the full family
tree was poured over by judges and lawyers to determine who was the correct
claimant to the Earldom.

If William who settled in Greenwich had been a natural son, I would have
expected him to be referred to in some correspondence like that which refers
to Lt.Col. Nicholas or Lt.Col. James a generation later.

Perhaps someone out there has a letter which will finally answer this
mystery. As a matter of interest, is there a list of the godparents of
William Jnr who married Hannah Avery and of the other children. If there is
I would be interested to learn who they were.

For completeness I would point out that no member of the Sutherland family
at Dunrobin had used the surname Sutherland between 1508 when the 8th Earl
died and his daughter Elizabeth and her husband Adam Gordon inherited
bringing the surname Gordon into the Dunrobin family and 1703 when the 16th
Earl inherited and subsequently changed his name back to Sutherland. In
addition Sir Robert Gordon of Gordonstoun, wrote the History of the Earldom
of Sutherland in 1660 and he went into great detail on known natural sons of
his family so William couldn't be the son or grandson of a natural son of
the 13th or 14th Earl. IT is also relevant to consider that at that time
Dunrobin was a small traditional Z shaped tower house castle in which very
few people could live on a permanent basis. More than 90% of the present
castle was built in the 19th century by the 2nd and 3 dukes.
If anyone has any evidence about the origins of William the immigrant,
please put us all out of our misery!!
Mark

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of DanBCooley
Sent: 19 November 2006 00:14
To:
Subject: [SUTHERLAND] John William Sutherland 1735

While on a family history (Cooley) trip to Massachusetts and Vermont
this past summer I quite unintentionally ran across an amazing find in
the Proctor (Vermont) Free Library. Therein is an unpublished but bound
book entitled _John William Sutherland and Allied Families_ compiled in
the mid-80's by Millie A. Owings whom, I was told, passed away
recently. The pages were composed on a typewriter and many pages
contained "paste-ups" of corrections. Also there were several pages of
very poor Xerox-copied pictures (think back to the early days of
copiers). Obviously this book was in it's mid-stages of completion.

I had come to Proctor to view Sutherland Falls and what's left of Peter
Sutherland's mill but I was quite unprepared to delve into this
resource, therefore, what I have to relate is very sketchy. I copied
some Sutherland-specific information by hand as follows (please be aware
that I have read past Sutherland mail list postings by Mark
Sutherland-Fisher whom, I think, would dispute the very first page of
the Owings book):

1st gen William Sutherland b. Dunrobin Castle, Scotland
(source: _History of Greenwich, Connecticut_)
William the immigrant bought land in Greenwich CT on 16
Feb 1722
2nd gen William Sutherland Jr of Bangall, Dutchess County, NY and
wife Hannah Avery
3rd gen John William Sutherland b. 3 July 1735 in Dutchess
County, New York
m. Jan 1755 Mary Germain at New Rochelle, Ulster
County, New York
Their i. Peter b. 20 Feb 1756 in Bangall Dutchess Co NY
children m. Carol Bush
ii. James b. 13 Nov 1758 "
iii. William b. 4 Mar 1761 "
iv. Justus b. 21 Mat 1763 "
v. John Jr b. 18 Jun 1765 "
vi. Mary Germain b. 22 Oct 1767 in Rutland Co VT
vii. Isabella b. 27 Sep 1769 "
viii. Silas b. 3 Aug 1771 "
ix. Arick b. 22 Apr 1773 "
John William arrived at Great Falls (later Sutherland Falls)
1766/67. He was the first settler. He served in the 77th Regiment of
Foot, part of Montgomery's Highlanders

I'm sorry but the above is all I was able to copy about Sutherland
ancestry in the limited time I had. What really was a breakthrough for
me is that Owings had access to the journal of Andrew Sutherland, 6th
child of Peter and Carol. The Sutherlands and Cooleys of this
generation were inextricably intertwined.

Andrew Sutherland married Naomi Cooley and Naomi's brother Noah Cooley
(my g3grandfather) married Jane Sutherland (5th child of Peter and
Carol). Noah and Jane named their eldest son Andrew Sutherland Cooley
(my g2grandfather) and Andrew and Naomi named their eldest son Benjamin
Cooley Sutherland (whom, unfortunately, died in early childhood).
Benjamin, by the way, is the name of the Cooley who arrived in the
Springfield MA area about 1632 and from whom I, and many "northern"
Cooleys descended.

Bottom line, there lies a-moulderin' in the stacks of the Proctor Free
Library of Proctor VT 05765 a valuable resource: _John William
Sutherland and Allied Families_ by Millie A. Owings. While questionable
in the ancestry of John William, I think it may be very useful for his
descendants
--
Daniel Cooley
San Mateo, Calif




Mark Sutherland-Fisher wrote:
Almost every Sutherland in the US who is at least 6th generation has
been looking for the origins of William Sutherland and Hannah Avery. I
fear the only place the question will ever be answered is in America,
not here in Scotland. Mark


-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message




This thread: