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Archiver > TMG > 2005-09 > 1125587227


From: "Fred Rump" <>
Subject: RE: [TMG] Proper Terminology (OT)
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 11:07:07 -0400
References: <200509010324.j813Omaj003131@ms-smtp-04.tampabay.rr.com>
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20050831230613.0426ab60@mail.isomedia.com>


On 1 Sep 2005 at 0:33, Barbara Zanzig wrote:

>
> Because there was no "Germany" until 1871, and even then it was
> dominated by "Prussia", and some of the things in Germany today were
> not part of "Germany" in 1871.

I know that but the people living there have been
"Deutsch" for a long, long time before the 2nd Reich
was established after the Franco-Prussian war.
Deutschland did not start up like magic in 1871. It
had always been there but it did not have a strong
central government - actually until Hitler. The word
Germany came from the old Latin Germania into the
English language. It included all those people who
were part of the Germanic tribes of old.

So using Germeny is not really wrong but it may be
politically incorrect if we have a better, more
accurate description of the local politican scene.

> Before that, it was the Holy Roman
> Empire, which in 1648 had over 300 jurisdictions including bishoprics,
> kingdoms, duchies and archduchies, principalities, electorates,
> margravates, and the like, and became the German Confederation
> (independent states joined by treaty) in 1815 (but still the Holy
> Roman Empire).

The HRE ended on Aug. 6th, 1806 when the Austrian
Emperor, Francis II (Franz von Habsburg) resigned to
take the title of Franz I, Emperor of Austria.

In my own genealogy I use HRE as the highest level
place working my way down the political spectrum of
the times. This is not always an easy task as things
were in constant flux but I try. I do use Germany as
of 1871 even though the proper names should be
whatever Germans called their system of government at
the time. I do not use Bundesrepublik Deutschland or
even Federal Republic of Germany as Germany seems
sufficient for the cause. Niether do I differentiate
between the Weimar Republic or the Nationalist-
Socialist state under Hitler. It's all Germany as the
word Deutschland was used by the Germans themselves.

>Do you write "German Confederation" or "Holy Roman
> Empire"? Of course not.

No, why not? The states of the 'Deutscher Bund' were
not really a country but the HRE was a system of law
and rule which lasted for about a thousand years with
an elected Emperor as its head. It was a part of
European history and there is no need to simply
ignore its existence. Its later proper name (1512)
was 'Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation'.

The 'Confederation of the Rhine', was not a country
but something established by Napoleon in order to
divide and dilute the power of the German states.
Nor were the Deutscher Bund or the Norddeutscher Bund
under Prussia. Both were a lose confederation of
independent states.

My point to the original accusation that using
Germany from the census is wrong was to ask, where?
How? In general, and unless we have more specific
data, it is the correct term to use.

> Do you want to talk about the Hapsburg Empire
> or the Swedish Empire or the Spanish Empire, all of which existed in
> parts of "Germany" at various times? Shall we call it "Roman Empire"?

You need to get your history straight. There was
never a Swedish or Spanish empire as neither ever had
an emperor. What you call the Spanish empire was
really the HRE which included Spain as a kingdom from
1516 to 1700. For example, the HRE Emperor Charles V
also was Carlos I., King of Spain.

So if you have genealogy going back to very early
times, it would be wise to study history to find out
who sat on the top of the mountain during your
ancestor's lifetime.

> See http://www.rootsweb.com/%7Ewggerman/map/germanconf.htm and the
> Hammond/London Times _Atlas of World History_ for some historical
> maps. The history of Germany is probably more complex than almost any
> other (shall we say, common genealogical) country, and "Germany" is a
> modern construction.

History is always complex as we need to think back to
a time which is totally foreign to our way of
thinking today. I don't want to get into a long
discussion about the origin of states as a concept
but suffice it to say that Germany or Deutschland as
a conglamoration of people speaking the same language
goes back to pre-history. "Deutsch" has its origin in
the Old High German word "diutisc" meaning "the
language of the people" (as opposed to Latin). So
when the Romans came to Gaul, the people already
spoke a Germanic language which they called the
language of the people. French, as well as English,
grew out of this language of the people. Never mind
all the other languages of northern Europe.

Just remember that the Romans termed the word
GERMANIA for what is Germany today - not a very
modern construct and safe to use even today. :-)

> If we're being really accurate, none of it is "Germany", it's
> "Deutschland". Following your logic, why not honor your ancestors by
> calling it what they called it?

That's right, if you know how. I certainly follow my
own advice but then I call myself a historian. My
ancestors are listed as coming from the Frstbistum
Mnster, the Groherzogtum Oldenburg, the
Markgrafenschaft Ansbach-Bayreuth-Kulmbach,
Westpreuen in Preuen etc. These of course are not
necessarily the sequence of 'lordships' involving TMG
places under religious events. There a whole new
sequence follows from Kirchspiel up to the ruling
diocese or Landeskirche. So it gets complicated but
such is history and genealogy.

> I assure you, my 18th and 19th century Hanoverians did not call
> themselves German or Prussian, or even Deutsch.

You want to bet? Hanover did not become a part of
Prussia until 1866 so they would't have been able to
tell the future in the 18th century but those same
Hanoverians knew they were German and probably were
part of the Herzogtum Braunschweig-Lneburg, the
Frstbistum Osnabrck or some other smaller
principality which later became the Kingdom of
Hanover in 1815. So your Hanovarians had the grand
old time of 50 years to get used to their new
overlordship before they had to get used to being
Prussians. So where is the assurance you speak of?

>If you look at some of
> the censuses where the census taker was instructed to write Germany
> instead of the state, many of them wrote the state (that is, where the
> subject said s/he was born), which was later crossed out (by an
> American) and re-written as Germany (or Prussia). None of them were
> "Germans" until the late 19th or 20th century, which is where your
> argument about "denying their heritage" falls down!

Please, don't lecture until you know something about
the topic your preaching about.

> Just because our Bureau of the Census was, possibly willfully,
> ignorant and Americentric and responding to changing political times,
> should we lump all of it, with varying religions, customs, geography,
> etc. etc. together? Don't ask what Americans thought it was, ask what
> Germans thought it was.

That's right and you came to the right place to ask.
See above.

One of the cardinal rules of historical research is
to use the information as found in the sources. You
can explain, elucidate, translate, whatever but don't
mess with your sources and assume differently. Do the
research and correct as necessary but never just wipe
out your sources because you don't like what was
written. Quote it as is and take it from there.

> Places changed jurisdiction routinely in response to political events,
> *especially* in Germany. In Germany, *especially*, with its 2000 year
> history, you must know the history and it's important to be as
> specific as possible or you can't find your people, because you have
> to trace who owned the patch of land over time to find where the
> records are now. If you put "Germany" for someone born in Posen, you
> would never, ever find the parish records, which now reside in the
> Ukraine. Galacia, now part of Germany, was part of Austria-Hungary in
> 1873. And so on.

Posen was a province or state within Prussia. If the
census says Germany record it as such but correct the
actual places in your event records. BTW I thought
you said Germany is a modern construct not a country
with a 2000 year history. Which is it now?

> Things that were part of "Germany" until 1918 are now independent
> countries, like Poland, or provinces of other countries, like
> Alsace-Lorraine. In fact, Germany as we know it didn't emerge until
> the end of WWI -- or shall we count the expansion before WWII, or the
> contraction after WWII, or the expansion in 1990? I think that this is
> what Kevin was getting at; "Germany" is just not very satisfactory
> from a genealogist's viewpoint.

Today's political-geographical changes have nothing
to do with where people were born or spent their
lives. The royal city of Knigsberg in East Prussia
is celebrating it's 750th birthday this year. Since
the allies gave the northern part of East Prussia to
Russia (as they wanted a warm sea port) there is a 60
year anniversary as a Russian city too. Which counts
in genealogy? The 60 year Russian part or the 700
year German part?

My own birthplace was Elbing in West Prussia. It
celebrated it's 700th anniversary in 1937. Today it
is Elblag, Poland. Does this mean I'm Polish all of a
sudden and that I was born in a Polish city? My
passport says that I was born in Elbing, Germany. So,
whatever point you are trying to make, don't change
history on people.

> And so ends your German history lesson for today (steps gracefully
> down from soapbox.) Obviously, this post pushed some of my buttons.

Wrong buttons I'm afraid, but do read some German
history. It's quite interesting and it's all about
Germany too. :-)

> If I don't have anything more specific I put "Germany". I record the
> census as it says, Germany, because that's what the source says.

There you go. So what were you trying to argue?

> I, too, would love to have place name variants, especially if they
> allowed dates of effectivity.

The place name thing within TMG is basically limited
to GEDCOM wich did not really envision a system like
TMG which is supposed to be a lot more then names,
dates and places. Sadly, it's still stuck at the
GEDCOM level for the place fields. Maybe some day...

Fred

Fred & Marlies Rump
730 5th St. NW
Naples, FL 34120-2029
239-775-7838 or cells: 239-269-4781 / 609-284-6007
or


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